Ethan Smith is the CEO of Graphite—the leading SEO growth agency—and my go-to expert on SEO. After 18 years of mastering traditional SEO, Ethan has been at the forefront of what is called AEO: answer engine optimization, or, more simply, getting your product to show up in ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini/Perplexity answers. He’s discovered that ChatGPT traffic converts six times better than Google search—and most companies are completely missing this opportunity. *In our conversation, we discuss:* 1. His 7-step playbook to rank #1 in ChatGPT 2. Why ChatGPT traffic converts 6x better than Google 3. How early-stage startups can win at AEO immediately (unlike with SEO, which takes years) 4. The three tactics that actually work: landing pages, YouTube videos, and Reddit comments 5. Why help-center content can suddenly be your highest-ROI investment 6. The specific Reddit strategy that works (spoiler: be authentic) 7. Why AI-generated content doesn’t work *Brought to you by:* Orkes—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflows: Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: Great Question—Empower everyone to run great research: *Transcript:* *My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):* *Where to find Ethan Smith:* • Twitter: • LinkedIn: • Graphite: • Graphite Research Papers: *Where to find Lenny:* • Newsletter: • X: • LinkedIn: *In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Welcome back, Ethan (04:34) The changing landscape of SEO (06:19) AEO (answer engine optimization) vs. GEO (generative engine optimization) (08:13) The impact of AEO (11:51) How early-stage startups can win at AEO (14:34) The quality of AEO leads (15:35) On-site vs. off-site traffic (16:32) Reddit’s role in AEO and avoiding spam (20:11) How AI models use citations (RAG) (21:41) Key principles for winning at AEO (25:00) Avoiding hyper-SEOed content, and the importance of originality (28:55) Actionable AEO playbook: steps and experiments (33:35) Tracking, measuring, and share of voice (38:34) Adapting AEO for B2B, commerce, and early-stage companies (41:11) Is letting AI index your content good? (43:06) Experimentation, control groups, and measuring results (46:15) The future of AEO, SEO, and search channels (51:35) AI-generated content: what works and what doesn’t (55:25) The dangers of infinite AI derivatives (58:44) The future: convergence of LLMs and search (01:00:40) Help-center optimization and the long tail (01:03:18) Lightning round and final thoughts *Referenced:* • AEO Tools: • The ultimate guide to SEO | Ethan Smith (Graphite): • Inside ChatGPT: The fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): • Webflow: • YouTube: • Reddit: • Quora: • An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth): • Dotdash Meredith: • Forbes: • Vimeo: • Perplexity: • Gemini: • ChatGPT: • Claude: • TechRadar: • Yelp: • Tripadvisor: • TikTok: • Why ChatGPT will be the next big growth channel (and how to capitalize on it) | Brian Balfour (Reforge): • AI SEO: Latest Market Intelligence & Landscape Analysis—Summer Sessions: • AI Content Study: • Free AI detector: • Common Crawl: • AI models collapse when trained on recursively generated data: • Looker: ...References continued at: _Production and marketing by _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.