Check out Sublime at: Use this link for a discount on the Ulysses app: Jonathan Franzen is one of the most influential novelists alive today. He sees fiction as the most fundamental human art, and in this conversation he explains how he actually makes it: the discipline, the daily grind, and the psychological spelunking required to write characters who feel startlingly alive. Franzen has always had an outsider’s eye. He questioned the hype of the Internet long before it was fashionable, and he’s been ruthless in diagnosing the spiritual emptiness of modern consumer life. Practically, more than anything else, this episode is about how he develops rich characters. For Franzen, the people are the story. When they’re real and true, fiction has a way of getting to the core of the human experience in a way that gives people a visceral experience, as if they’ve lived the story firsthand. 00:00:00 Creating rich characters 00:02:40 Should novels be funny? 00:12:00 Examining your own life 00:14:49 Why novels must be fun 00:25:15 How clichés ruin fiction 00:29:16 How to observe society 00:43:28 The dangers of modern tech 00:49:22 Lies about the “good life” 00:52:38 Does chaos make you creative? 00:54:49 Jonathan’s writing routine 00:59:37 Why he loves birds *About the host* Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. *Follow me* Apple: YouTube: @DavidPerellChannel Spotify: X: